Re: Re: Re: It doesn't look good for Tina the Tech Writer ... OK, this makes for a good segue

[Kathleen MacDowell <kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com>]

Sir Vincent,

There are schools/colleges that offer tech writing tracks. How do you
picture a certificate covering material that those students wouldn't offer?

I can't judge whether a certificate would make a difference in customer
attitude. Even so, there are some skills that only experience can teach,
and some that everyone can't learn.

I do wonder if the most skilled will end up designing interfaces, though,
and that will undoubtedly provide more respect.

Kathleen

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Vincent <vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com> wrote:

>    Sticking with the core topic threads (Tina the TW, and my comments on
>    TW recognition general):
>    I certainly agree with the many points made by one of this forum's
>    contributors in response to my submission on this:
>    Indeed, if there were a TW certification, HR/hiring managers would or
>    could use that qualification to filter applications.  But I like to
>    think that will serve as a motivation for continuing education among us
>    (yes, I am deliberately mixing tenses for effect).
>    Indeed, the recognition of a TW will never be what it should be until
>    development (and other) managers recognize our true level of
>    contribution (and stop thinking of some of you as labor and low on the
>    totem pole).
>    Also, I chuckled a bit when I read the analogy to 'brussel sprout'
>    cake.  Firstly, I neglected to fully think forward that I was writing
>    to other writers with creative satire.  Secondly, I love brussel spouts
>    -- grilled or broiled -- but have never contemplated them in a cake.
>    However, I have been inspired by this to develop a recipe for using
>    them in quiche.
>    Having said all that:  While I respectfully agree with your perspective
>    points, I still think that TW certification is good idea, would be a
>    benefit to those who want to make a FULL career of technical writing,
>    would ultimately result in more competitive compensation, and simply
>    would raise the professionalism and skill-specialty acceptance of TWs
>    in general.  It would subsequently foster the manager recognition in
>    concern.
>    Sir Vincent
>
>
>    On 10/18/16, Julie Stickler<jstickler -at- gmail -dot- com> wrote:
>
>    Not to be a curmudgeon, but this conversation thread has drifted from
>    being
>    about Tina or about technical writing and is getting dangerously close
>    to
>    starting to talk about politics.
>    I've had my fill of politics lately and would like to avoid it on
>    TECHWR-L
>    if at all possible.
>    Thanks!
>    Back to the word mines for me.
>    On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Kathleen MacDowell
>    <[1]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>    > wrote:
>    > I don't know much abt his preferred candidate, but that post strikes
>    a lot
>    > of chords for me. Always nice to have someone else to blame for once
>    ...,
>    > although it'll be cringeworthy. I also think political think has
>    nothing
>    > much to do with gender.
>    >
>    > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Ron Hearn <[2]rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com>
>    wrote:
>    >
>    > >
>    > > Further to yesterday's discussion on Scot's attitudes toward women,
>    there
>    > > is this from his blog last week:
>    > >
>    > > [3]http://blog.dilbert.com/post/151737656851/the-era-of-women
>    > >
>    > >
>    > >
>    > > -----Original Message-----
>    > > From: techwr-l-boun[4]ces+rhearn=cucbc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>    [mailto:
>    > > techwr-l-boun[5]ces+rhearn=cucbc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com] On Behalf
>    Of Keith
>    > > Hood
>    > > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2016 1:56 PM
>    > > To: [6]vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com
>    > > Cc: techwr-l <[7]techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com>
>    > > Subject: Re: Re: It doesn't look good for Tina the Tech Writer ...
>    OK,
>    > > this makes for a good segue
>    > >
>    > > I agree that a good tech writer is just as valuable to the company
>    as an
>    > > engineer. But my experience has proven to me beyond any possible
>    doubt
>    > that
>    > > the overwhelming majority of managers who make the retention
>    decisions do
>    > > not agree.
>    > >
>    > > Another certification in a field which is not valued by the people
>    who
>    > > make the retention decisions is not going to help. That's kind of
>    like
>    > > having a dozen layers of frosting on a Brussels sprout cake. It's
>    not
>    > going
>    > > to win the baking competition.
>    > >
>    > > What needs to happen is for someone to finally come up with a way
>    to
>    > PROVE
>    > > that the tech writer's work adds value to the product. There has to
>    be
>    > some
>    > > way to express it in numbers and show that the work really does
>    bump up
>    > the
>    > > bottom line on the quarterly report. Until that happens,
>    certifications
>    > may
>    > > be useful in grading applicants for hiring decisions, but they will
>    be
>    > > meaningless to retention.
>    > >
>    > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 3:10 PM, Vincent <[8]vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com>
>    wrote:
>    > >
>    > > > Friends,
>    > > > When the first rush of replies on this flowed in, I got angrier
>    and
>    > > > angrier as I quickly parsed. Angry at y'all that is (no
>    disrespect
>    > > > intended here) for missing the critical issue against your
>    current
>    > > > chosen profession. I wanted to write then but I too, as Kathleen
>    > > > understands, must choose my fires to quench. At the moment, I
>    have
>    > a
>    > > > little time.
>    > > > Being too long involved in IT, I have chuckled at select Dilberts
>    > now
>    > > > and again when people have point them out, but I have never been
>    an
>    > > > avid fan. That, and Mr. Adams' gender imbalance :)
>    notwithstanding,
>    > > > the real insult within the Dilbert installment under discussion
>    is
>    > > that
>    > > > the TW character is being presented as less valuable than an
>    > inherent
>    > > > engineer asset. Nothing could be more untruthful or a better
>    > example
>    > > > of program management misperception.
>    > > > Yes, of course certain senior engineers -- and even engineers
>    with
>    > > > seniority -- are essential and invaluable to an R&D team, and
>    > deserve
>    > > > to recognized as such. However, generally speaking, good
>    engineers
>    > > are
>    > > > readily available and replaceable, but a good technical writer is
>    > not.
>    > > > The experienced and capable technical writer, while he or she
>    > suffers
>    > > > being regarded as a peer -- and mistakenly by Mr. Adams less --
>    is
>    > > > actually senior in contribution to most engineers. Without the
>    > > > documentation process, application worklfow errors, system design
>    > > > errors, database architecture endless loops, and coding foopahs
>    of
>    > > > every rushed and improperly tested kind would make it passed the
>    > > > staging cycle. Without proper documentation there is lessened
>    > > > accountability to management. The technical writer is above an
>    > > > engineer. Engineers who don't take a TW's request for a meeting
>    > > > seriously probably shouldn't be trusted to do their own work
>    > > > excellently and should be let go.
>    > > > Having spent some time working inside federal agencies, it always
>    > > > bothered me how silly it is for the way PMP certification is
>    > esteemed
>    > > > (again, no disrespect intended, but experience trumps the PMP
>    > > > certificate 100% of the time). I have long had a dream that
>    > technical
>    > > > writers need their own certification, such CPTW (Certified
>    > > Professional
>    > > > Technical Writer), likened to CPCM, CFCM, and to have that
>    > credential
>    > > > promoted and recognized properly. And while I have spawned many
>    > ideas
>    > > > on how to chase that dream, I am only now getting to
>    semi-retirement
>    > > > hours so that perhaps I can.
>    > > > Thoughts? Reactions? Anyone want to work on/pursue establishment
>    > of
>    > > > CPTW with me?
>    > > > Vincent
>    > > > [9]www.linkedin.com/in/vincentpasqualeruvolo
>    > > >
>    > > >
>    > > > On 10/17/16, Kathleen MacDowell<[10]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com>
>    wrote:
>    > > >
>    > > > It's been interesting to see everyone's interpretations, which
>    are
>    > > > sometimes much deeper than my own.
>    > > > I haven't seen Dilbert for many years, but I've always viewed him
>    > > > similar
>    > > > to a Tom and Jerry (or any other) cartoon.
>    > > > He managed to convey my feelings about some of the idiocies we
>    > > > encounter at
>    > > > work; ah yes, restraining the fist of death.
>    > > > Sad to say, some people have real grudges that are expressed in
>    the
>    > > > real
>    > > > world. And truly, as hard some of the work/life realities are to
>    > bear
>    > > > sometimes, we have a lot more pressing things to deal with right
>    > now.
>    > > > Most of us are subject to some kind of inequalities, some of us
>    more
>    > > > than
>    > > > others. It would be wonderful if it could be reduced...
>    > > > Kathleen
>    > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 12:46 PM, kafkascampi
>    > > > <[1][11]kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com> wrote:
>    > > > > Not to be a buzzkill (which means I am totally about to be a
>    > > > > buzzkill), Scott Adams has some controversial views about women
>    in
>    > > > the
>    > > > > workplace. This is one of the reasons I choose not to support
>    him.
>    > > > >
>    > > > > Read more here:
>    > > > > [2][12]http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/
>    > > > >
>    > > > > Chris
>    > > > >
>    > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Tony Chung <[3]
>    > [13]tonyc -at- tonychung -dot- ca>
>    > > > wrote:
>    > > > > > False alarm. A week later Tina agrees to be pointy head's
>    "work
>    > > > wife"
>    > > > > > [4][14]http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-14
>    > > > > >
>    > > > > > -Tony (also in Vancouver)
>    > > > > >
>    > > > > > On Thursday, 6 October 2016, Ron Hearn
>    <[5][15]rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com>
>    > > > wrote:
>    > > > > >
>    > > > > >> Looks like Tina is getting the axe in today's Dilbert:
>    > > > > >> [6][16]http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-06
>    > > > > >>
>    > > > > >>
>    > > > > >>
>    > > > > >> Ron Hearn
>    > > > > >> Documentation Specialist
>    > > > > >>
>    > > > > >> Central 1 Credit Union
>    > > > > >> 1441 Creekside Drive
>    > > > > >> Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
>    > > > > >> V6J 4S7
>    > > > > >>
>    > > > > >> [7][17]rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>    > > > <javascript:;><[8][18]mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>    > > > > >> <javascript:;>>
>    > > > > >> Tel: 604.730.6391
>    > > > > >> Fax: 604.730-7792
>    > > > > >>
>    > > > > >>
>    > > > > >>
>    > > > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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>    > > > --
>    > > > Kathleen MacDowell
>    > > > [19][31]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>    > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    > > > Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
>    > strategy
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>    vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com -dot- 
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>    > > > [22][34]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/ for
>    more
>    > > > resources and info.
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>    > > > online magazine at [23][35]http://techwhirl.com
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>    > public
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>    > > >
>    > > > References
>    > > >
>    > > > 1. [37]mailto:kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com
>    > > > 2. [38]http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/
>    > > > 3. [39]mailto:tonyc -at- tonychung -dot- ca
>    > > > 4. [40]http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-14
>    > > > 5. [41]mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>    > > > 6. [42]http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-06
>    > > > 7. [43]mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>    > > > 8. [44]mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>    > > > 9. [45]http://techwhirl.com/
>    > > > 10. [46]mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>    > > > 11. [47]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>    > > > 12. [48]http://techwhirl.com/
>    > > > 13. [49]http://techwr-l.com/archives
>    > > > 14. [50]http://techwhirl.com/
>    > > > 15. [51]mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>    > > > 16. [52]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>    > > > 17. [53]http://techwhirl.com/
>    > > > 18. [54]http://techwr-l.com/archives
>    > > > 19. [55]mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>    > > > 20. [56]http://techwhirl.com/
>    > > > 21. [57]mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>    > > > 22. [58]http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>    > > > 23. [59]http://techwhirl.com/
>    > > > 24. [60]http://techwr-l.com/archives
>    > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    > > > Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
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>    > --
>    > Kathleen MacDowell
>    > [76]kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>    > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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>    --
>    Julie Stickler
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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> References
>
>    1. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>    2. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>    3. http://blog.dilbert.com/post/151737656851/the-era-of-women
>    4. mailto:ces+rhearn=cucbc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>    5. mailto:ces+rhearn=cucbc -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>    6. mailto:vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com
>    7. mailto:techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>    8. mailto:vincentpr -at- trfnova -dot- com
>    9. http://www.linkedin.com/in/vincentpasqualeruvolo
>   10. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>   11. mailto:kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com
>   12. http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/
>   13. mailto:tonyc -at- tonychung -dot- ca
>   14. http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-14
>   15. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>   16. http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-06
>   17. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>   18. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>   19. http://techwhirl.com/
>   20. mailto:kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com
>   21. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   22. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   23. http://techwhirl.com/
>   24. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   25. http://techwhirl.com/
>   26. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>   27. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   28. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   29. http://techwhirl.com/
>   30. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   31. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>   32. http://techwhirl.com/
>   33. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   34. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   35. http://techwhirl.com/
>   36. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   37. mailto:kafkascampi -at- gmail -dot- com
>   38. http://comicsalliance.com/scott-adam-sexist-mens-rights/
>   39. mailto:tonyc -at- tonychung -dot- ca
>   40. http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-14
>   41. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>   42. http://dilbert.com/strip/2016-10-06
>   43. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>   44. mailto:rhearn -at- central1 -dot- com
>   45. http://techwhirl.com/
>   46. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   47. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   48. http://techwhirl.com/
>   49. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   50. http://techwhirl.com/
>   51. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   52. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   53. http://techwhirl.com/
>   54. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   55. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>   56. http://techwhirl.com/
>   57. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   58. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   59. http://techwhirl.com/
>   60. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   61. http://techwhirl.com/
>   62. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   63. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   64. http://techwhirl.com/
>   65. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   66. http://techwhirl.com/
>   67. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   68. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   69. http://techwhirl.com/
>   70. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   71. http://techwhirl.com/
>   72. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   73. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   74. http://techwhirl.com/
>   75. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   76. mailto:kathleen -dot- eamd -at- gmail -dot- com
>   77. http://techwhirl.com/
>   78. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   79. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   80. http://techwhirl.com/
>   81. http://techwr-l.com/archives
>   82. http://techwhirl.com/
>   83. mailto:techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>   84. http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/
>   85. http://techwhirl.com/
>   86. http://techwr-l.com/archives
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