Re: TECHWR-L Digest, Vol 206, Issue 1

[J Parrick <jrfude -at- gmail -dot- com>]

Sorry if I'm not replying correctly, I couldn't find any information on how
to do this properly.

You could use the title="text that shows up when mouse is hovered over
thing and shows up for screen readers" hack to add relevant text to nearly
any tag in HTML.

> Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
>
> The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don?t see a good
> alternative.
>
> I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> column and row labels are the only information of interest (the contents
of
> the cells are examples that don?t add any value).
>
> I?d like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide first,
> so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text would
> identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data are
samples
> and don?t need to be read.
>
> Any thoughts on how best to do this?s @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
>

On Sat, Apr 29, 2023 at 1:03âAM <techwr-l-request -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Copyright infringement (Carolyn Palo)
>    2. RE: Copyright infringement (Lin Laurie)
>    3. Alt text on HTML tables (dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net)
>    4. Re: Alt text on HTML tables (Nina Barzgaran)
>    5. Re: Alt text on HTML tables (dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net)
>    6. Re: Alt text on HTML tables (Robert Lauriston)
>    7. Re: Alt text on HTML tables (Peter Neilson)
>    8. Re: Alt text on HTML tables (Keith Hood)
>    9. Re: Alt text on HTML tables (Alan Houser)
>   10. Re: Alt text on HTML tables (dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 12:48:05 -0400
> From: Carolyn Palo <carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com>
> To: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement
> Message-ID:
>         <CANoBtc6+XUbaMjAORzVqYDY2bDCL_+z-NfngFLMxgVnHC=
> RZGA -at- mail -dot- gmail -dot- com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I wanted to share the outcome of the potential copyright problem with
> copying and/or rebranding one company's software user manual to another.
> The Legal Department told the Product Manager (who thought this was "no big
> deal") that they (software devs, product management for the most part here
> in the US) needed to get permission
> from the software company (Finland), to copy the manual.
>
> Software company (Finland) said "No."
>
> The end.
>
>
> *Carolyn Palo*
> *Professional Writer *
> Phone:  617-491-0551
> Email:   carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 10:30?AM Carolyn Palo <carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thank you everyone.  Your responses solidify my stance on the matter.
> I'm
> > dealing with a mix of naivete, ignorance and cavalier attitudes.
> > I deflected to the legal department as a matter of education, in the
> > least, and exposure to some thinking.  The software engineer is from
> India,
> > the product manager is from here in the states, the manual is from
> > Finland.
> >
> > My conscience -don't do it.  It is a big legal risk, and to add some
> > color, I once managed the book distribution of an "elite software
> > company."  My background is book publishing.  Some of their technical
> books
> > went OP (out-of-print) and were sitting in the warehouse.  They are
> > typically destroyed unless the author wants them or authorizes a
> remainder
> > sale. It's illegal to sell them as the rights have expired.  The "elite
> > software company" didn't want to pay to have the OP books destroyed, "We
> > can sell them!" they said.  We said, "No."  "Yes, we can!" they said
> > (sales).  I explained
> > to my liaison there, "Nope, legal problems will happen and you will be
> > sued."  They insisted.  We sold them on their behalf with a big warning.
> > They thought they
> > made a lot of money and were "disrupting the system."
> >
> > Then they were sued multiple times by the authors who wrote the books.
> >
> >
> > *Carolyn Palo*
> > *Professional Writer *
> > Phone:  617-491-0551
> > Email:   carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 6:39 AM Peter Neilson <neilson -at- windstream -dot- net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I can believe it. There are several possible motives:
> >> - Lazy or sloppy management.
> >> - Naive - "The information wants to be free."
> >> - Scary deadline, no time to make it right.
> >> - Underhanded. There is a hidden agenda.
> >>
> >> It usually comes down to money. Cui bono?
> >>
> >> On 3/3/23 04:44, Keith Hood wrote:
> >> >   I can't believe anyone could be so cavalier about what could be such
> >> a horrendous legal risk. I've worked in this field for more than 30
> years
> >> and I've never heard of something like this. I think the people you are
> >> working for are not solidly in this world.
> >> >           Keith Hood
> >> >
> >> >      On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 11:15:12 PM CST, Gene Kim-Eng<
> >> techwr -at- genek -dot- com>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >   Structurally, perhaps, but it does not relieve you of the need for
> >> clear
> >> > copyright on all your topics.
> >> >
> >> > Gene Kim-Eng
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 3/2/2023 6:51 PM, Tony Chung wrote:
> >> >> Isn?t that the whole use case behind DITA?
> >> >>
> >> >> -T
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 14:05 Carolyn<carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com>  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hello - wondering what experience anyone has with copying manuals?
> >> >>> Specifically, taking an existing manual and changing the name only -
> >> from
> >> >>> one company to another?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> My stance is it is plainly copyright infringement.  I?m told ?yeah
> >> but no
> >> >>> one cares we do it all the time in the software world.?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Really?  Anyone?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Carolyn Palo
> >> >>> 617 491-0551
> >> >>> ?Don?t find fault, find a remedy.? - Henry ForD
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content strategy
> >> and content development | https://techwhirl.com
> >>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> You are currently subscribed to TECHWR-L as carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com -dot- 
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> >> techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> >>
> >>
> >> Send administrative questions to admin -at- techwr-l -dot- com -dot-  Visit
> >> http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/ for more resources
> and
> >> info.
> >>
> >> Looking for articles on Technical Communications?  Head over to our
> >> online magazine at http://techwhirl.com
> >>
> >> Looking for the archived Techwr-l email discussions?  Search our public
> >> email archives @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
> >>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 19:27:45 +0000
> From: Lin Laurie <linlaurie1 -at- hotmail -dot- com>
> To: Carolyn Palo <carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com>,
>         "techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com"   <techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com>
> Subject: RE: Copyright infringement
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CO6PR06MB75235638EC8FA73E303D3057936B9 -at- CO6PR06MB7523 -dot- namprd06 -dot- prod -dot- outlook -dot- com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I don't know who the "we" in the software world is that they are referring
> to. The fact that some of the people in your scenario are from other
> countries where they do run "shortcuts" does seem relevant. I think that
> expediency and profit are also both factors. And when you live in a country
> where survival is paramount, that can be a driving force. But it is wrong
> and they know it. It doesn't make it acceptable or right just because they
> may do it.
>
> However, having worked with a number of software companies who happen to
> also have developers in one of those countries, the good companies do not
> take shortcuts.
>
> Shame on them. Good for you for standing your ground. Do you think you
> will have stopped them from doing this?
>
> Lin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: techwr-l-bounces+linlaurie1=hotmail -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> <techwr-l-bounces+linlaurie1=hotmail -dot- com -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com> On Behalf Of
> Carolyn Palo
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2023 9:48 AM
> To: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I wanted to share the outcome of the potential copyright problem with
> copying and/or rebranding one company's software user manual to another.
> The Legal Department told the Product Manager (who thought this was "no big
> deal") that they (software devs, product management for the most part here
> in the US) needed to get permission from the software company (Finland), to
> copy the manual.
>
> Software company (Finland) said "No."
>
> The end.
>
>
> *Carolyn Palo*
> *Professional Writer *
> Phone:  617-491-0551
> Email:   carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 10:30?AM Carolyn Palo <carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thank you everyone.  Your responses solidify my stance on the matter.
> > I'm dealing with a mix of naivete, ignorance and cavalier attitudes.
> > I deflected to the legal department as a matter of education, in the
> > least, and exposure to some thinking.  The software engineer is from
> > India, the product manager is from here in the states, the manual is
> > from Finland.
> >
> > My conscience -don't do it.  It is a big legal risk, and to add some
> > color, I once managed the book distribution of an "elite software
> > company."  My background is book publishing.  Some of their technical
> > books went OP (out-of-print) and were sitting in the warehouse.  They
> > are typically destroyed unless the author wants them or authorizes a
> > remainder sale. It's illegal to sell them as the rights have expired.
> > The "elite software company" didn't want to pay to have the OP books
> > destroyed, "We can sell them!" they said.  We said, "No."  "Yes, we
> > can!" they said (sales).  I explained to my liaison there, "Nope,
> > legal problems will happen and you will be sued."  They insisted.  We
> > sold them on their behalf with a big warning.
> > They thought they
> > made a lot of money and were "disrupting the system."
> >
> > Then they were sued multiple times by the authors who wrote the books.
> >
> >
> > *Carolyn Palo*
> > *Professional Writer *
> > Phone:  617-491-0551
> > Email:   carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 6:39 AM Peter Neilson <neilson -at- windstream -dot- net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I can believe it. There are several possible motives:
> >> - Lazy or sloppy management.
> >> - Naive - "The information wants to be free."
> >> - Scary deadline, no time to make it right.
> >> - Underhanded. There is a hidden agenda.
> >>
> >> It usually comes down to money. Cui bono?
> >>
> >> On 3/3/23 04:44, Keith Hood wrote:
> >> >   I can't believe anyone could be so cavalier about what could be
> >> > such
> >> a horrendous legal risk. I've worked in this field for more than 30
> >> years and I've never heard of something like this. I think the people
> >> you are working for are not solidly in this world.
> >> >           Keith Hood
> >> >
> >> >      On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 11:15:12 PM CST, Gene Kim-Eng<
> >> techwr -at- genek -dot- com>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >   Structurally, perhaps, but it does not relieve you of the need
> >> > for
> >> clear
> >> > copyright on all your topics.
> >> >
> >> > Gene Kim-Eng
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 3/2/2023 6:51 PM, Tony Chung wrote:
> >> >> Isn?t that the whole use case behind DITA?
> >> >>
> >> >> -T
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 14:05 Carolyn<carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com>  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hello - wondering what experience anyone has with copying manuals?
> >> >>> Specifically, taking an existing manual and changing the name
> >> >>> only -
> >> from
> >> >>> one company to another?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> My stance is it is plainly copyright infringement.  I?m told
> >> >>> ?yeah
> >> but no
> >> >>> one cares we do it all the time in the software world.?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Really?  Anyone?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Carolyn Palo
> >> >>> 617 491-0551
> >> >>> ?Don?t find fault, find a remedy.? - Henry ForD
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content
> >> strategy and content development | https://techwhirl.com
> >>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> You are currently subscribed to TECHWR-L as carolynpalo -at- gmail -dot- com -dot- 
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> >> techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> >>
> >>
> >> Send administrative questions to admin -at- techwr-l -dot- com -dot-  Visit
> >> http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/ for more resources
> >> and info.
> >>
> >> Looking for articles on Technical Communications?  Head over to our
> >> online magazine at http://techwhirl.com
> >>
> >> Looking for the archived Techwr-l email discussions?  Search our
> >> public email archives @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
> >>
> >
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content strategy and
> content development | https://techwhirl.com
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> You are currently subscribed to TECHWR-L as linlaurie1 -at- hotmail -dot- com -dot- 
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
>
>
> Send administrative questions to admin -at- techwr-l -dot- com -dot-  Visit
> http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/ for more resources and
> info.
>
> Looking for articles on Technical Communications?  Head over to our online
> magazine at http://techwhirl.com
>
> Looking for the archived Techwr-l email discussions?  Search our public
> email archives @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 14:18:06 -0600
> From: dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net
> To: "techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com" <techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com>
> Subject: Alt text on HTML tables
> Message-ID: <E77F2D00-F8EF-4785-A609-08BCEC0D2E47 -at- rlhamilton -dot- net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
>
> The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don?t see a good
> alternative.
>
> I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> column and row labels are the only information of interest (the contents of
> the cells are examples that don?t add any value).
>
> I?d like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide first,
> so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text would
> identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data are samples
> and don?t need to be read.
>
> Any thoughts on how best to do this?
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Hamilton
> -------
> XML Press
> XML for Technical Communicators
> http://xmlpress.net
> hamilton -at- xmlpress -dot- net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2023 02:06:48 +0200
> From: Nina Barzgaran <nina -dot- barzgaran -at- barzgaran -dot- at>
> To: dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net
> Cc: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> Subject: Re: Alt text on HTML tables
> Message-ID: <2507556eebcecf140671643112761338 -at- barzgaran -dot- at>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> I am no expert on alt text in general, but have worked with HTML before,
> it's been a while though. First thing that comes to mind, thinking it
> over, if alt text is not allowed inside the table tag: Would you be able
> to use a div tag, right before the table and put the alt text in
> there...?
>
> Just thinking.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Kind Regards
> Nina
>
> Am 28.04.2023 22:18, schrieb dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net:
>
> > Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
> >
> > The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don't see a good
> > alternative.
> >
> > I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> > column and row labels are the only information of interest (the
> > contents of the cells are examples that don't add any value).
> >
> > I'd like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide
> > first, so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text
> > would identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data
> > are samples and don't need to be read.
> >
> > Any thoughts on how best to do this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Richard Hamilton
> > -------
> > XML Press
> > XML for Technical Communicators
> > http://xmlpress.net
> > hamilton -at- xmlpress -dot- net
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content strategy
> > and content development | https://techwhirl.com
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to TECHWR-L as
> > nina -dot- barzgaran -at- barzgaran -dot- at -dot- 
> >
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> > techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> >
> > Send administrative questions to admin -at- techwr-l -dot- com -dot-  Visit
> > http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/ for more resources
> > and info.
> >
> > Looking for articles on Technical Communications?  Head over to our
> > online magazine at http://techwhirl.com
> >
> > Looking for the archived Techwr-l email discussions?  Search our public
> > email archives @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 18:28:54 -0600
> From: dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net
> To: TECHWR-L <techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com>
> Subject: Re: Alt text on HTML tables
> Message-ID: <E508F6FB-44E6-4B01-A641-91A7060961F7 -at- rlhamilton -dot- net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> Thanks Nina,
>
> I?ll check that out. I suspect it will depend on whether screen readers
> will pick up that text, but if they do, then this could be an alternative.
>
> Richard
> -------
> XML Press
> XML for Technical Communicators
> http://xmlpress.net
> hamilton -at- xmlpress -dot- net
>
>
>
> > On Apr 28, 2023, at 18:06, Nina Barzgaran <nina -dot- barzgaran -at- barzgaran -dot- at>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am no expert on alt text in general, but have worked with HTML before,
> it's been a while though. First thing that comes to mind, thinking it over,
> if alt text is not allowed inside the table tag: Would you be able to use a
> div tag, right before the table and put the alt text in there...?
> >
> > Just thinking.
> > Good luck!
> >
> > Kind Regards
> > Nina
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 28.04.2023 22:18, schrieb dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net:
> >
> >> Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
> >>
> >> The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don?t see a good
> alternative.
> >>
> >> I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> column and row labels are the only information of interest (the contents of
> the cells are examples that don?t add any value).
> >>
> >> I?d like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide
> first, so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text
> would identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data are
> samples and don?t need to be read.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts on how best to do this?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Richard Hamilton
> >> -------
> >> XML Press
> >> XML for Technical Communicators
> >> http://xmlpress.net
> >> hamilton -at- xmlpress -dot- net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content strategy
> and content development | https://techwhirl.com
> >>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> You are currently subscribed to TECHWR-L as nina -dot- barzgaran -at- barzgaran -dot- at
> .
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> >> techwr-l-leave -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> >>
> >>
> >> Send administrative questions to admin -at- techwr-l -dot- com -dot-  Visit
> >> http://www.techwhirl.com/email-discussion-groups/ for more resources
> and info.
> >>
> >> Looking for articles on Technical Communications?  Head over to our
> online magazine at http://techwhirl.com
> >>
> >> Looking for the archived Techwr-l email discussions?  Search our public
> email archives @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 17:43:16 -0700
> From: Robert Lauriston <robert -at- lauriston -dot- com>
> To: TECHWR-L <techwr-l -at- techwr-l -dot- com>
> Subject: Re: Alt text on HTML tables
> Message-ID:
>         <CAN3Yy4Anue2_R_zcP1=_3QkXjL2oQTpZBw8UC4msTrb=
> H_j9dA -at- mail -dot- gmail -dot- com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> You could put a small blank image in the table, though if the contents of
> the cells aren't useful, is a table really the right way to present this
> information?
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 1:18?PM <dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net> wrote:
>
> > Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
> >
> > The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don?t see a good
> > alternative.
> >
> > I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> > column and row labels are the only information of interest (the contents
> of
> > the cells are examples that don?t add any value).
> >
> > I?d like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide
> first,
> > so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text would
> > identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data are
> samples
> > and don?t need to be read.
> >
> > Any thoughts on how best to do this?s @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 22:02:58 -0400
> From: Peter Neilson <neilson -at- windstream -dot- net>
> To: techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com
> Subject: Re: Alt text on HTML tables
> Message-ID: <b3c63984-b657-ec37-02a2-b4d6b822c0b9 -at- windstream -dot- net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Alt text is an attribute of images. The purpose is to provide a
> description of the image for those who cannot see it. Images ("img") are
> the only elements that support the alt text attribute.
>
> In the case specified it would probably be best to render the table as
> an image in which the unimportant parts are grayed out, with the alt
> text describing the image that shows the table. An actual table (with
> cell content such as etaoin shrdlu, lorem ipsum or similar nonsense)
> might appear after the table image.
>
>
> On 4/28/23 20:43, Robert Lauriston wrote:
> > You could put a small blank image in the table, though if the contents of
> > the cells aren't useful, is a table really the right way to present this
> > information?
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 1:18?PM<dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net>  wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
> >>
> >> The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don?t see a good
> >> alternative.
> >>
> >> I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> >> column and row labels are the only information of interest (the
> contents of
> >> the cells are examples that don?t add any value).
> >>
> >> I?d like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide
> first,
> >> so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text would
> >> identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data are
> samples
> >> and don?t need to be read.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts on how best to do this?s @http://techwr-l.com/archives
> >>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2023 02:05:43 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Keith Hood <klhra -at- yahoo -dot- com>
> To: TECHWR-L <techwr-l -at- techwr-l -dot- com>, Robert Lauriston
>         <robert -at- lauriston -dot- com>
> Subject: Re: Alt text on HTML tables
> Message-ID: <534016833 -dot- 1667296 -dot- 1682733943166 -at- mail -dot- yahoo -dot- com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>  Are you trying to do this for blind readers? If not, I don't see any
> advantage to using alt text.
>
> If you lead the table with a simple block of descriptive text, wouldn't
> that do the same thing that you want?
>
> ?? Keith Hood
>
>     On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 07:43:31 PM CDT, Robert Lauriston <
> robert -at- lauriston -dot- com> wrote:
>
>  You could put a small blank image in the table, though if the contents of
> the cells aren't useful, is a table really the right way to present this
> information?
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 1:18?PM <dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net> wrote:
>
> > Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
> >
> > The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don?t see a good
> > alternative.
> >
> > I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> > column and row labels are the only information of interest (the contents
> of
> > the cells are examples that don?t add any value).
> >
> > I?d like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide
> first,
> > so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text would
> > identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data are
> samples
> > and don?t need to be read.
> >
> > Any thoughts on how best to do this?s @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 21:52:42 -0400
> From: Alan Houser <arh -at- groupwellesley -dot- com>
> To: dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net
> Cc: "techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com" <techwr-l -at- lists -dot- techwr-l -dot- com>
> Subject: Re: Alt text on HTML tables
> Message-ID: <0B8CD84E-C02C-4595-82D0-57CBD8760840 -at- groupwellesley -dot- com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Every time I read the HTML5 spec, I'm impressed by the amount of attention
> paid to accessibility and semantics. So I thought "there must be a way".
>
> What about the "summary" attribute on the table element? This seems to fit
> your use case.
>
> However, the HTML5 spec does not favor the summary attribute. Section
> 4.9.1.1 of the spec, Techniques for Describing Tables, addresses several
> approaches to benefit all readers, including those who cannot see the
> table. https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#table-descriptions-techniques
>
> HTH!
>
> -Alan
> --
> Alan Houser
> Group Wellesley, Inc.
> Consultant and Trainer, Technical Publishing
> arh on Twitter
> 412-450-0532
>
>
>
> > On Apr 28, 2023, at 4:18 PM, dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net wrote:
> >
> > Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
> >
> > The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don?t see a good
> alternative.
> >
> > I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> column and row labels are the only information of interest (the contents of
> the cells are examples that don?t add any value).
> >
> > I?d like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide
> first, so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text
> would identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data are
> samples and don?t need to be read.
> >
> > Any thoughts on how best to do this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Richard Hamilton
> > -------
> > XML Press
> > XML for Technical Communicators
> > http://xmlpress.net
> > hamilton -at- xmlpress -dot- net
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2023 23:43:56 -0600
> From: dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net
> To: Robert Lauriston <robert -at- lauriston -dot- com>
> Cc: TECHWR-L <techwr-l -at- techwr-l -dot- com>
> Subject: Re: Alt text on HTML tables
> Message-ID: <F9E45E75-1A62-43EA-8367-44B2007A8522 -at- rlhamilton -dot- net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> You make a good point about whether a table is the best way to present
> this information.
>
> The structure of the table is important (the rows and columns), but this
> table shows an example of how you might structure a table or spreadsheet,
> so the cell contents are the data equivalent of Lorem Ipsum text.
>
> It might actually be better to make it an image and let the alt text
> describe the structure (rows and columns) and leave out the contents other
> than to describe the type of information in the cells.
>
> Of course, since my understanding is that most screen readers give readers
> the option to skip over table content, it would be nice to be able to add
> alt text directly to the table and include a note that the (person) reader
> can skip the table itself. Esp. since I?ve already created several tables
> like this:-).
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.
> Richard
> -------
> XML Press
> XML for Technical Communicators
> http://xmlpress.net
> hamilton -at- xmlpress -dot- net
>
>
>
> > On Apr 28, 2023, at 18:43, Robert Lauriston <robert -at- lauriston -dot- com>
> wrote:
> >
> > You could put a small blank image in the table, though if the contents of
> > the cells aren't useful, is a table really the right way to present this
> > information?
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 1:18?PM <dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net> wrote:
> >
> >> Is there a way to add alt text to a table?
> >>
> >> The alt attribute is not allowed on table, and I don?t see a good
> >> alternative.
> >>
> >> I know that screen readers can read tables, but in this use case, the
> >> column and row labels are the only information of interest (the
> contents of
> >> the cells are examples that don?t add any value).
> >>
> >> I?d like to able to add alt text that a screen reader would provide
> first,
> >> so the user could choose to skip the table itself. The alt text would
> >> identify the rows and columns and then state that the cell data are
> samples
> >> and don?t need to be read.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts on how best to do this?s @ http://techwr-l.com/archives
> >>
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Visit TechWhirl for the latest on content technology, content strategy
> and content development | https://techwhirl.com
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > You are currently subscribed to TECHWR-L as dick -at- rlhamilton -dot- net -dot- 
> >
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> >
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>
>
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-- 
Thank you,
J R Parrick (K0TBS)
Si vis pacem, para bellum!
https://k0tbs.net
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